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Re: motor/ fuel injectors 300+hp Just the facts Ma'am...


This is in reply to Rhett's (SVOASC) msg to me, about Joe and the 35 lb/hr
injector issue, and to put this stupid issue to bed.

> Thats BS, Ive posted it time and time again.. I dont care what anyone has
> say in reguards 

But you DO seem to care...

> to what Im about to say... YOU CAN NOT MAKE 300 HOURSE POWER
> on the stock 35 pph fuel injectors..  

> Until someone can prove it with a DYNO
> printout on a stock motor with a small/BIG engle cam,, then please don't
> that kind of information out..  

um, he did.  
without N2O, 231 HP at the wheels + 20 % drivetrain losses = 277 on the
with N2O,  316 HP at the wheels + 20 % drivetrain losses = 379 w/nitrous,

Thru the "stock 35 pph fuel injectors.."  
This is quoted from your sentence above.  Now if you want to restate it,
and say stock pump, stock pressure, that's fine, then you would be correct.
 But, you have just been nailed with your own words.  

There seems to be some confusion on the issue at hand here.
The issue is:
Can 35 lb injectors feed over 300 HP?

The answer to that question is:
Yes, they can.

Joe's N2O system, raises fuel pressure pretty high when the nitrous is
flowing. This is how the fuel AMOUNT is increased, to support 379 HP.

You may not like this, you may not think it's safe, you may not think it
will last.  Joe's Pinto proves that it did, does, and continues to do so. 
If you think that a longer distance, (straightaway, etc.) will somehow make
the system go lean, I think you're noodles.  What has time got to do with
it?  It's either lean or it ain't.  And it ain't.  And I do understand

I ran Joe's 1/4 times against a HP calculator, and here's the results.

a 10.941 @ 119.58 is 392.365 HP

Now that the basic discussion is solved, let's extrapolate...

Can you use brown (35 /lb) injectors in your street car without N2O?
If you use the same method that Joe did, raising fuel pressure, then yes,
it looks like you can.  An FMU from Vortec or one of the other supercharged
vendors could be used to raise your fuel pressure, under boost.  However,
raising pressure, lowers the flow from the pump. So, use your head and
upgrade your entire fuel system.  Joe has big fuel pumps.  Big deal.  I
will too.  Others have stated that they have run into problems with this
method of enrichment.  Fine.  If you don't like this method, feel free to
persue another method.  

There's lots of them;
Mass Air conversion (currently a black area)
Bigger injectors and a Superchip (ditto)
Wesley's calibrator (unavailable)
Ford Motorsports EPEC (currently unavailable)  ships finally, this week.  
Other vendors' stand alone engine management (tres expensive, difficult to
dial-in, ask Mike Abbey)

None of these are cheap and easy.  You will be modifying your car, far
beyond design parameters, and if you snuff your motor, it's your fault.

But don't categorically state that it doesn't work, when Joe is telling you
it does.  And, I think as the fastest 2.3 racer in the country, you all
would appreciate what he has to say.  He's not telling you that you have to
do it this way.  But, again;


I would be as pissed off as Joe is, if people were telling me what I was
doing, didn't work.  His answers may be smartass, but look at the

If you have time slips, and dyno printouts, and burned motors, showing you
failing, big deal.  Joe's showing you a success.

It seems that most of the bickering here is cloaked in trying to protect
neophytes from themselves.  This is an honorable motivation, but it's also
doomed to fail.  People will always continue to throw sexy parts at the
motor, and then wonder why it burns.  It's a system, build it right, build
it once.  Go for the "magic bullet", get burned.  This is common racer
knowledge, and why the "top of the heap" guys are respected.

BTW, most of the build ups of 2.3s, printed in magazines, have glaring
errors in their methods for pursuing HP improvements.  None of them have
made any real progress, because they keep doing it wrong.  I have an
article where a NORMALLY ASPIRITED 2.3 made 379 HP.  My local circle track
has Mini-stock Pintos turning their carb'd 2.3 s to 7500-8000 RPM on STOCK
engine components.  That should show that all that hooplah, over weak rod
bolts, and the other whooey that's been bandied about, is also a bit
suspect.  I got in a big flame war on Fordnatics over whether or not a
Fairmont with a stock 460 in it could run in the twelves.  SEVERAL people
wrote to explain to me that it can't be done.  No less than 3 vendors, and
my best friend have done it.  But they couldn't be convinced.  Fine, just
say up-front that you're unteachable and we can all save our breath.

I'd like to hear about what you've done, and how it worked for you.  I'm
not interested in what you say CAN'T be done.

As an unmoderated listserver, we get to listen to everybody, good or bad. 
I think if you guys would ALL take the defensiveness out of your posts,
then we could get on about the business of LEARNING.


I can take the listserver down, go fast on my own, and call my friends on
the phone.  Your choice.