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Re: SVO: Re: Nick's cam

On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Dave Compton wrote:

> I'm SICK of you guy's badmouthing people you haven't met, and products you
> don't have.
Dave, pop a tab on a beer or pop one less tab...or something like
that.....Liten up.

<Stuff about warranty bitching deleted>

Being as this thermonuclear explosion I think is aimed at Joe and I, I
must point out that neiother of us mentioned warranty, especailly due to
improper matching of parts....We are tlakin aobut his CAM KIT......

> Maybe those of you who don't have Nick's parts, yet question how it can
> work, should take a look at the LIFTERS that are DIFFERENT than stock. 

But a 505 lift cam implies .505 lift at the valve.

> know the angle of the follower will change lift significantly, so, these
> different lifters could be the key to getting it all to live.  Numbers on a
> cam in a 2.3 don't mean squat, so maybe the lift isn't 505, 

So your saying it is possible nick is lying about the cam lift then? Its
not really a .505 lift? then why say it is?  Sounds as unethical as what
engle does.  

(I sure as hell
> don't know, see how easy that was to admit) but so what. 

I can admit when I am wrong, but someone has to show me why first! Why am
I wrong? And dont give me some BS about not owning it....he says .505
lift, a random sample stocj head had .611 inches of total travle, and the
valve seal is .140...how can that work? tell me why?  Unless nick is
fibbing aobut the lift, IT WONT FREAKIN WORK!  I'm sorry to add the
numbers in the real world and have it not come out in your personal
freinds favor....

 The Engle isn't
> what it says it is, and nobody cares. It's how Nick's cam feels,
> (reportedly good) and performs (we'll know soon enough) that matters. 
> Hell, it's the only roller cam that anybody even likes!  Wake UP!
I dunno....only people I hear b*tchin aobut the FMS cam didnt start doin
so until it was bashed to hell here.......I think its

> Unfortunately, the internet is a place where one bad word about a vendor is
> repeated a thousand times, yet the good news travels like it's stuck to a
> snail's ass.
Sorry if the objective info is not favorable..and guess what Dave, you
gave me hell for not examining nicks DP before I said what was told to me
by the owner of one...Well guess what, I saw it with my own two eyes!! Ric
pointed it out to me in his driveway!!!  I could see the CRUSH BEND in the
dark with a flashlight!  So, did I lie?  its not a massive smash bend like
they do to grandma's lincoln, but its still nit a smooth bend.

> A good example is ExtremeSVO's long in coming admission that he had no idea
> what a roller cam would cost, and made a big stink about it.  Then 3 weeks
> later he adds a small postscript that he was wrong.
> I'm not pickin on ya, but that took a LONG time.
I agree......but then again, some people never have to admit it...they
have censor filter protection.

> As for Nick's posts, he is short in his messages. Maybe he doesn't type
> well. 

well, hes been on email and lists longer than me, so he should be
better by now...Before email I could only type ~12wpm...

 Both for me and for
> others.  You can always find some idiot who blew up his car and blames the
> parts. Nick gets email from many more places than here, and most of them
> are people who will never by anything.  Yet, he still answers them as best
> he can.  Sheer volume could explain the shortness of his messages. Think
> about it.

yeah, and i bet I answer just as much email as him, and I dont expect to

> If you haven't called NIck on the phone and SPOKEN to him, then don't judge
> him by his posts. 

Have you ever talked to me on the phone?  then dont judge me either....I
gave you mt number to giv eto him...if he wants to call me, hes
welcome...hell, anyone on the list can call me 813-977-3166..but I will be
leaving for a few weeks on Weds eve...
> I've been elbow deep in an engine, track-side with him.  Not an engine he
> built either, we were just helping a friend.  

How is it somehow more noble that he would help someone than any of us?
Is it more noble of him to help someone than say......Jim Dvorak(jus a
random name Jim:)

> He's a friend, and he's DOING things for the 2.3.  That puts him head and
> shoulders above most of you.  If it makes you feel good to put others down,
> then I suggest you get some counseling.
Hello...were not putting him down...we are using the numbers he gave
us/advertises, and put them in a real world head, that he said wpuld
work...and if his cam is what he says it is, and that cam was put in that
head, it would fail....How would you feel if that was your head Joe mic'd?
And noone said it couldnt be made to fit, as with any other 500 lift cam.
Its just that he said it would bolt in, and its false.  if someone on
Fordnatics had a 700 lift small block roller for your lincoln, and they
said it would go in on your stock valves, would you need to buy it to
realize it doesnt add up?  is it even out of line to ask that vendor to
explain how he is managing to do the impossible somehow?

> I really want to put an end to this VENDOR bashing on the SVO list.

you yourself have bashed Steve at ETS, and Tiny Avenger Motorsports..or
does that rule just go for people you know?

> not appropriate, it's childish 

You know whats childish?  Not wanting to look at anything objectively cuz
its a friend of yours.  

Dave I ask you...what is .611 minus .505 minus .140?  The only thing that
can be even closeley cahnged is the .505 if the head is to remeian
stock...So unless you are saying nick is also lying about his cam spec's
and it is not really .505, it will not work.  500 miles later the thing
will be puffing smoke....
And you know what else is childidh? How willing you are to just accept
that its not a .505 lift cam, and that the spec is a lie....Two wrongs
dont make a rite.  I never mentioned the varience in the engle cuz I never
heard about it.

 It's also inapporpriate for any public forum. 
> This would be OK, if these were questions awaiting an explanation, but they
> ARE personal attacks.  Not appropriate here, and just plain bad form,
> anywhere.
that is bullshit, and you know it Dave!!!  In the beginning of the thread,
me an joe and most were backing nick and his policy..If I had a personal
thing, I would have joined in, or stayed quiet...But I stood up for
him...I never said his cam wouldnt work, jus wanted to make it clear the
at the test better not have any wacko discrepancies if he wants people to
take it seriously.  I have recommended his intercooler setup to people
that can afford it..its a bitchin peice.  But I am sure you will disregard
all this as it doesnt support your agenda of defending nick.
And yes, we ARE awaiting his explanation!  How many times can we ask how
he makes .505 inches of travel happen in a .471" space!

> This is NOT the "pick on the only vendor that even participates on this
> list" list.

Yeah, its the pick only on vendors that dont have net access....

> It's the SVO list.  Talk about SVOs, dammit. And nicely, too.
Sometimes the world isnt nice Dave......

> I WILL NOT allow it to damage the reputation, undeservedly, of the only 2.3
> vendor even doing ANYTHING for our engine family.

Are we damaging his rep? 
Wanna know how he repairs it?  All he has to do is show how he can make a
.505 lift cam work where there is only .471 inches of travel..I think
thats all we asked...if he said how, this would have been over with on the
first day.  its not a trade secret...With the effort he has put into a
personal attack on joe, he could have cleared the air and been done with
it..if he had an explanation.

> This is NOT about money.

But it is about something...

  It's about NOT giving unscrupulous people a forum
> to practice these unfair attacks.  What's going on here reminds me of a
> witch hunt.  Entirely uncharacteristic of the racing/tinkering society I
> know, and am proud to be a part of. 

When someone tells me somehting will work and a little combination of
their claimed info and the real world settings show it will damage my
parts, it becomes a characteristic of dealing with people.  

> I hope no one has a bad feeling about Nick over this crap,

I truthfully dont even have a prob with him...lie I said, me an joe stick
up for him when hes rite....were not even sayin hes wrong, now. But it
sure seems funny how he cant come up with anything when he is usually
crankin away on here, and like i said, you say aobut his time
contraint....he could have ended it if he explained himself instead of
talkin shit.....
> I realize that many of you are gun shy about 2.3 vendors, because of
> negative experiences relayed about OTHER vendors.  Please, realize how what
> you might say, might be taken as a warning by a newcomer, when in fact you
> haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

Dave, nick holds his own very well when he has a basis...he crumbles and
has the list admin fite his battles when he is wrong....want examples?  My
dad has run a CV joint business for 3 years....Nick was talking aobut how
wrong I was in the process of rebuilding joints...We have the highest
satisfaction rate of the 4 local suppliers.  he was way off, but because
he is nick, I was wrong...then I recommended the C302 springs on the Merk
list.  he contradicted me with less basis than what joe has rite now.  he
go to tbeat on me personally on merk list, while I remained
techincal...And then after I had support from Rick Byrnes, and my
experiance, along with Cory, Joe and joes freinds, Roland said I couldnt
post anything about it until I had "real proof"....dunno what he means.... 
its bullshit, and I think if you could suspend your feelings for nick, you
would feel the same way....we'll shut up if he says something thats on the
topic.  its bullshit that we come up with measurements, and cuz he says it
works, thats all he has to say.....

> If I was as crafty as some, I could remind you the list, that Joe Morgan is
> developing his own roller cam, and he could scare up a lot of purchases of
> HIS cam, by badmouthing the only, well thought of, 2.3 roller cam out
> there.

you think Joe is making money on the cam?  hes in it for a free cam thats
it....a cam that works.

> Investigate on your own, often you will find out FACTS that were not in the
> original detractor's posts.

And thats all we ask for.

And Dave, remain calm....if we are wrong in our numbers, tell us with
fact, not prolly's.  thats all we ask...I feel he is insulting my
intelligence in tellin me that cam will move .505 inches when there is
only .471 inches between the guide and retainer.  
But like i said, read this and read it OBJECTIVELY!  And dont forget, if I
had something against him, I would never back him up!  But what do I say
when i think that he is wrong?  keep it to myself? or accept it when he
says "it jus does."  TELL ME! And tell me what you think is the answer
when you "Do the rite thing."

		The Pinto Page:  www.eng.usf.edu/~shidel

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-71 Pinto, stock 2.3 turbo, 13.67@98, radials
	8.1@85 1/8th mile on slicks
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